Grimes/Crimes

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BarbaraW
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Posts: 759
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 12:58

Grimes/Crimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Hello to all, I'm back again with other eyes needed yet again. If you guys can't work it out then nobody can!!

In 1851 we have Charles Grimes and his wife Martha living in Whitby, Ellesmere Port with their 7 children. Another 4 children came later.

By February 1861 both Charles and Martha have died of typhus fever in Liverpool, this is the same family that had the informant of Martha's death as the undertakers wife. The deaths were both just weeks before the census.

The children are mainly unable to be found except for a couple of them in that years census I even did an address search and the property that Martha died in wasn't enumerated on the census so I suppose with no means to pay the rent the kids were out on the streets, it was one of those dreadful court dwellings in Gascoyne Street.

I have traced all of them except two brothers Joseph b 1844 and John b 1842. I recently contacted somebody on Ancestry after a marriage hint came up and P and I share the same 3 x grandparents of Charles and Martha. He is descended from John. He gave me details of where John was in 1871 in Seaville Street, Chester with his wife Bridget and their 2 children Charles b 1868 and Mary b 1870. This is where it gets tricky.

In 1881 the same family are living in Grappenhall I believe. I did a GRO birth index search and even bought the birth certificate of Charles, showing as mother Mary formerly BIRD, I also found a Cheshire RC baptism same birth date showing mother as Bridget formerly BIRD. I get the same mothers maiden name for the 2 children in the 1871 census and the younger child in 1881 of BIRD. There is a man who has done a one name study of Chrimes/Crimes and various spellings and he has it the same as me plus he found a RC marriage which didn't come up on my search. I have since found it and the parents of John are correct, the brides name is Mary BIRD.

But P doesn't think this is correct. So I know it's correct for 1871 and 1881 because of the birth index mmn BIRD being the same family.

His g grandmother is Bridget who is buried in Garston in 1912. First of all I went forwards with this family from the 1871 census then when I found her gravestone I went backwards and still reached the same conclusion. Bridget's surname is Ryder in the 1891 census, I cannot find a marriage for her nor can I find a death for her husband John Grimes

If P doesn't wish to accept my findings that's up to him but I want MY family tree to be as accurate as possible. Hoping for yet another mystery to be solved fingers crossed.

Sorry for the long post but I tried to give as much information as possible so people aren't wasting their time looking at records needlessly.
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

Bertieone
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Posts: 4259
Joined: 17 Sep 2012 11:19

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

Marriage for those who can't see it.

Image
Bert

Bertieone
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Posts: 4259
Joined: 17 Sep 2012 11:19

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

1881, Grappenhall census,

RG11 P3799 F124 P5,


Name Age
John Grimes 44
Mary Grimes 41
Charles Grimes 12
Mary Grimes 10
John Grimes 8
Margaret Grimes 5
Micheal Drider 4
Micheal Gaffany 19

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/s ... sePUB=true
Bert

Bertieone
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Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

Barbara,

Is this the 1891 family, if so, how do you make a connection to the 1881 family?

Grappenhall census, 1891

RG12 P3081 F133 P16


Name Age
Bridget Ryder 49 Ireland
Margaret Ryder 22 Ireland
Michael Ryder 20 Ireland
Bert

BarbaraW
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Posts: 759
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 12:58

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Hi Bertie

Knutsford Road in Grappenhall is the same road though I can't see any street numbers Grappenhall has a very small population, Bridget and Margaret are roughly the right age. Michael Ryder is a bit of an anomaly though there is a Michael Drider in the previous census as a 4 year old farm labourer!! I am not saying I am 100% correct but just looking for fresh eyes to look at it. P has Bridget in the 1871 census in Chester then nothing until 1901 in Liverpool as a widow with 4 boarders and John her husband doesn't ever make another appearance.
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

Bertieone
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Posts: 4259
Joined: 17 Sep 2012 11:19

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

Barbara,

Something to ponder,

Marriage, 1896, Liverpool, Reg office or Reg Attended

Charles Grimes/Margaret Ryder, No marriage cert yet.

1901 census,
Knutsford Rd, Grappenhall,
RG13 P3332 F79 P35
As Transcribed,


Name Age
Bridget Ryer 62
Margaret Grimes 29
Charles Grimes 3
Francis Grimes 2
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/s ... sePUB=true

1911,
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/s ... ource=7814
Bert

Bertieone
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Posts: 4259
Joined: 17 Sep 2012 11:19

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

Barbara,

Looking at the 1912 burial of Bridget Grimes, address, 56 Chesterton St, Garston.

1911 census for that address,

Charles Grimes/ Mary Ellen Grimes and family.

Their marriage, 1897 West Derby, Reg office, Reg Attended,

Charles Edward Grimes/Mary Ellen Collins,

Is Charles full name on his Baptism?, I know its not on his birth reg, Charles CRIME mmn Bird.
Bert

BarbaraW
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Posts: 759
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 12:58

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Hi Bertie

Thank you for giving me even more to ponder lol!! What an amazing coincidence if it's a different family from 1891 onwards in the same road with mother Bridget and daughter Margaret!! I couldn't find a birth entry for Margaret in England.

The baptism is in Find My Past, Carolus Grimes, no middle name. I did a 10 year GRO birth index search and there is no Charles Edward Grimes or Crimes. Sorry but I can't remember how to put an attachment on here.

The Charles Grimes married to Mary Ellen Collins is the correct family. The gravestone of Bridget Grimes comes up with a photo link to one of those sites, it was Find A Grave.
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

Bertieone
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Joined: 17 Sep 2012 11:19

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by Bertieone »

Hmm, I 'm thinking on it, do I have to dust off the,

"Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish" :lol: :lol:
Bert

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MaryA
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Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by MaryA »

By the time I've opened my eyes Bert has already sorted everything, I reckon he's the best :)

To post your image viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15790
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BarbaraW
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015 12:58

Re: Grimes/Crimes

Post by BarbaraW »

You really are the best Bertie :D

Using a tip Mary gave me on Facebook about RC marriages and just using surnames I have just found the marriage of Charles and Margaret.

Holy Cross church

21st August 1896

Carolus Grimes parents Martin and Maria (Mary I think)

to

Margaretum Ryder parents Michaelis and Brigittae


Also found the RC baptism of their son Charles Joseph Grimes.

.
Grappenhall, also a township in Grappenhall ancient parish, Bucklow hundred (SJ 6486), became a civil parish in 1866.
The civil parish was renamed Grappenhall & Thelwall in 1974.
It included the hamlet of Highfields.

The population was 338 in 1801, 708 in 1851, 987 in 1901, and 5655 in 1951.


What are the odds?!!

Thank you very much for clearing this up with your great detective work. Sometimes you just need fresh eyes to look at things from another angle. Have a great day. :D
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

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