Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

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BarbaraW
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Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Please 👀.

Charles Grimes b. 1819 and wife Martha b.1818 are on the 1851 census in Whitby, Eastham, Cheshire (Ref: H.O. 107/2173) with their 6 children. All children were baptised as being the son or daughter of Charles and Martha Grimes. They have 2 children born and baptised in Liverpool, Daniel 1857 and Jane 1859 both from the same address Johnson Street, on Jane's baptism it says occupation Brewer, his usual occupation being carter or labourer.

On the marriage of their son James to Abigail Burgess in 1873 it say his father is James Grimes, a brewer. So after much thought I put that down to our equivalent of a name typo.

Yesterday I finally received the death certificates I'd been waiting for. On the DC for Martha who died of Fever in February 1861 it says wife of James Grimes, a brewers labourer, she died in the courts at Gascoyne Street. The informant was Dorothy Griffith of 15 Bevington Hill.

Charles died days later in the Workhouse a surgeon in attendance, he died of Typhus fever. I'm thinking that he was a patient rather than an inmate as it said he was a labourer, though no home address was given. The 3 youngest children except for a baby were admitted 3 months later to the Workhouse then released after 2 weeks to an Industrial School maybe Kirkdale?

So after mulling on this overnight I'm wondering if on official type records marriage, census, baptisms etc he used his legal name of Charles but would be known more commonly as James, which was also his father's name BTW. The only trouble with this scenario is he had a brother James, I've just checked other trees and brother James died in Eastham in 1877.

I should also say all dates and ages seem to match.

Your thoughts are much appreciated TIA.
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

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MaryA
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by MaryA »

Looking to see if there's anything in the Workhouse Registers and found the Burial Register for St Martin in the Field with both Martha and Charles listed.

Oh No, I think they have reused the register and the burial has taken place in Walton, see top of page.

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MaryA
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Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
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Bertieone
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by Bertieone »

Dorothy Griffith was an Undertakers wife, so probably done the honours because no one else was available.

How many children married using James as father and Charles as father, can you list please Barbara.

Liverpool Mercury, November 20, 1860.

Image

This man could be known as a Carter and Brewers Labourer.
Bert

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MaryA
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by MaryA »

I did wonder if he might have used first and second names when he married but not, however perhaps he did use it as his father on the certificate was also James.

Sadly no results for Cheshire baptisms.
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Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
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MaryA
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by MaryA »

Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 11:57

Liverpool Mercury, November 20, 1860.
That's a long gap before the burial on 3rd March, Barbara it would be worth your while to check the Inquest diary when the RO is back open, there must have been one to delay things so long surely?
MaryA
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Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives

Bertieone
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by Bertieone »

MaryA wrote:
23 May 2020 12:06
Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 11:57

Liverpool Mercury, November 20, 1860.
That's a long gap before the burial on 3rd March, Barbara it would be worth your while to check the Inquest diary when the RO is back open, there must have been one to delay things so long surely?
It's not Charles Grimes obit, posted because there was a Charles Grimes associated with carts and breweries.
Bert

BarbaraW
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 11:57
Dorothy Griffith was an Undertakers wife, so probably done the honours because no one else was available.

How many children married using James as father and Charles as father, can you list please Barbara.

Liverpool Mercury, November 20, 1860.

Image

This man could be known as a Carter and Brewers Labourer.


YAY!!!!

9 children so far - all have Charles as the father's name
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

BarbaraW
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

MaryA wrote:
23 May 2020 11:45
Looking to see if there's anything in the Workhouse Registers and found the Burial Register for St Martin in the Field with both Martha and Charles listed.

Oh No, I think they have reused the register and the burial has taken place in Walton, see top of page.

Image
Yes Mary when I was looking for Martha, I saw Charles on the same page, spooky.
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

BarbaraW
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

BarbaraW wrote:
23 May 2020 12:25
Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 11:57
Dorothy Griffith was an Undertakers wife, so probably done the honours because no one else was available.

How many children married using James as father and Charles as father, can you list please Barbara.

Liverpool Mercury, November 20, 1860.

Image

This man could be known as a Carter and Brewers Labourer.


YAY!!!!

9 children so far - all have Charles as the father's name
OOps sorry Bertie 11 children

Ann b 1839
Margaret b 1841
John b 1842
Joseph b 1844
Adam b 1847
Martha b 1848
Charles b 1850
Mary b 1852
James b 1855
Daniel b 1857
Jane b 1859

Now you have me wondering as I typed them out if there are 2 families........
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

Bertieone
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by Bertieone »

Am I correct in saying he was only called James on 2 documents?

Martha's death cert, registered by the Undertakers wife and probably his assistant. No way of knowing where she gathered the information, very open to mistakes, especially if Charles was fighting his own battles with his health.

Son James' marriages, his second marriage appears to fit nicely with Abigail passing, I suppose he not the first to have his father recorded wrongly, I don't know if you've ever noticed, when a fathers name is recorded wrongly, more often than not, it's normally the same as the son.

As we have noticed before, the signatures differ. The passing of time may account for that.
Bert

BarbaraW
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 13:37
Am I correct in saying he was only called James on 2 documents?

Martha's death cert, registered by the Undertakers wife and probably his assistant. No way of knowing where she gathered the information, very open to mistakes, especially if Charles was fighting his own battles with his health.

Son James' marriages, his second marriage appears to fit nicely with Abigail passing, I suppose he not the first to have his father recorded wrongly, I don't know if you've ever noticed, when a fathers name is recorded wrongly, more often than not, it's normally the same as the son.

As we have noticed before, the signatures differ. The passing of time may account for that.
Yes only on the sons first marriage it was James, Charles on his second marriage.

And then on the wife's death certificate and that's it, and like you say who knows who this undertakers wife got the information from, could have been a child or a neighbour not understanding the question properly and I should imagine the majority of them were illiterate anyway. This family have been a bit of a pain and I really do thank you for your help. They are probably all in paupers graves with no headstones sadly.

I was doing a bit of a family tree for my brother in law as my sister asked me to try and kindle his interest, they were all QCs in London and the like and had names like Algernon and Horace, one was even an inventor!! But he wasn't interested except to have a cursory glance. I don't know how his dad ended up as a painter and decorator in Anfield!! So much easier with families who had unusual names and interesting careers as opposed to labourers with common names so thank you once again, I am going to go with these being the correct people.

I have the newspapers in Find My Past and they are supposed to be the same as the BNA but I think much harder to do searches in. Which did you use to find this Dorothy Griffith as I couldn't come up with her in a search or do you have that tucked away somewhere within your vast knowledge so you can do acts of genealogical kindnesses
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

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MaryA
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by MaryA »

Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 12:20



It's not Charles Grimes obit, posted because there was a Charles Grimes associated with carts and breweries.
But there's only one death

Deaths Mar 1861
Grimes Charles Liverpool 8b 200
MaryA
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Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives

Bertieone
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by Bertieone »

Here, 1861,

Edward Griffith, Undertaker
53
Dorothy Griffith
53
George Griffith
22
Susan Littlefield
50

RG9 P2652 F28 Page2

Bevington Hill
Bert

BarbaraW
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Re: Second or any opinions on Charles Grimes

Post by BarbaraW »

Bertieone wrote:
23 May 2020 14:04
Here, 1861,

Edward Griffith, Undertaker
53
Dorothy Griffith
53
George Griffith
22
Susan Littlefield
50

RG9 P2652 F28 Page2

Bevington Hill
Thank you very much. :) I send people on the Facebook group over here if they are stuck though not sure they all listen, they should!!
Povall Cheshire/Liverpool, Williams/Owens Caernarvon, Brown Liverpool/Cumberland/Ireland, Pritchard Liverpool, Atherton Liverpool, Banks Liverpool, Kelly IOM, Grimes/Botworth/Smith Wirral, Rice Manchester/Ireland, Lockley Manchester, Bowler Manchester.

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